This Date in Aviation History: April 19 - April 21

"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn) 04/21/2017 at 12:35 • Filed to: Planelopnik, planelopnik history

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Welcome to This Date in Aviation History , getting you caught up on milestones, important historical events and people in aviation from April 19 through April 21.

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April 19, 1960 – The First flight of the Grumman A-6 Intruder. During WWII, aircraft of the US Navy focused their efforts in the main on Japanese shipping and coastal targets. But during the Korean War, which followed quickly on the heels of the Second World War, Navy and US Marine Corps pilots found themselves flying the majority of their sorties against targets on land, far away from their carrier bases. Most of those missions were carried out by the remarkable !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , but the Navy decided in 1955 to develop a jet-powered aircraft that could perform the same ground attack mission but carry a significantly larger payload. They issued requirements for an all-weather, jet-powered tactical strike aircraft, and no less than eleven designs were submitted by Bell, Boeing, Douglas, Lockheed, Martin, North American, Vought and Grumman. Grumman already had a long history and solid reputation for building naval aircraft, and on January 2, 1958 the Navy awarded a contract for development of an aircraft that Grumman had designated the G-128. Unlike most aircraft of its size, the Intruder accommodated its two-man crew in a side-by-side configuration, more like a traditional bomber, rather than in tandem like a fighter. This arrangement allowed for better communication between the pilot and bombardier/navigator (B/N) and, in practice, the B/N often became as much a copilot as a weapons officer, helping the pilot monitor aircraft systems and radios. The large canopy covering the wide cockpit provided excellent visibility, and the bulbous nose section supplied ample room for electronic equipment. The first Intruders were fitted with the Digital Integrated Attack/Navigation Equipment (DIANE), a system that provided the crew with a digital display of both targets and terrain features and allowed attack missions in day or night, all weather, or other low-visibility conditions. The A-6's large wing was designed for both low-speed maneuverability and large weapons load, and the Intruder was capable of carrying as much as 15,000 pounds of munitions or a single nuclear weapon. Later variants were capable of carrying up to 18,000 pounds of stores. Power for the Intruder was provided by a pair of !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! non-afterburning turbojets which propelled the Intruder to a top speed of 685 mph in a clean configuration and a range of just under 2,000 miles fully loaded with weapons. To get all that armament off the deck, the original prototype of the Intruder was fitted with jet nozzles that could be swiveled downward to provide extra lift on takeoff. This system was eventually dropped, but the engine nozzles of production aircraft were still given a slight downwards deflection.

Swiveling exhaust nozzles shown on the A-6 prototype

The Intruder entered service with the Navy and Marine Corps in 1963 and was the primary all-weather attack platform throughout the Vietnam War. The A-6 proved to be a rugged aircraft that could absorb significant punishment and still return its crew to the carrier, reaffirming the “Iron Works” nickname that Grumman earned during WWII. Operating from carriers off the coast of Vietnam, Intruder crews flew 35,000 sorties during the war, with the loss of 69 aircraft to enemy fire. The A-6's excellent low-level maneuverability often allowed the pilot to out-turn incoming surface-to-air missiles, and the majority of Intruder losses were attributed to anti-aircraft artillery. Following Vietnam, the Intruder saw action in support of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! in 1983 and over Libya in 1986. In the mid-1980s, Grumman proposed a significantly upgraded Intruder, the A-6F Intruder II, which would have replaced the original turbojets with !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! turbofans, the same engine flown in the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . The radar also would have received a significant upgrade, and weapons load would be increased. However, the Navy passed on the Intruder II, focusing instead on the development of the stealthy  !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , which was slated as the A-6's replacement. But when cost overruns led to the cancelation of the A-12, the Navy was left without a dedicated attack aircraft. So the Intruder fought on, flying 4,700 sorties against Iraqi targets during the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! of 1990-1991. After nearly 35 years of service, the A-6 was retired in 1997 following a production run of nearly 700 aircraft, and its mission was briefly passed to specially equipped !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . The attack mission is now carried out by the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . (US Navy photos)

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April 21, 1918 – The death of Manfred von Richthofen. When the First World War broke out in 1914, the airplane was still in its infancy. The Wright Brothers had made the First Flight just eleven years earlier, and when the first airplanes were used in the war they were called scout planes and flown solely for reconnaissance. Opposing pilots often shared a friendly wave as they crisscrossed the skies over the battlefield. But it wasn’t long until those amicable greetings turned hostile. Aircrews started carrying pistols and rifles into the air, then machine guns were mounted on the aircraft and the dedicated fighter plane was born. Fighter pilots became a breed apart from other fighting men, enjoying the prestige and gallantry of their role in battle, and Manfred Albrecht Freiherr von Richthofen, better known as the Red Baron, became the greatest of them all, the iconic fighter pilot, both feared and respected by his enemy. Manfred von Richthofen was born to an aristocratic Prussian family in what is now a part of Poland. He began the war as a cavalry reconnaissance officer, and as the war stagnated and the cavalry became little used, he transferred to the Imperial German Army Air Service, later called the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , and began flying as a reconnaissance officer in August 1915. Following a chance meeting with !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , considered to be the father of German fighter tactics, Richthofen began training to be a pilot. He met Boelcke again the following year when Boelcke was looking for pilots to form a new squadron, Jagdstaffel 2, or Jasta 2. Richthofen joined the unit, and it was here that he scored his first victory on September 17, 1916. Soon, Richthofen was leading his own fighter group, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , and then was appointed to head the larger !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , better known as the Flying Circus. Though Richthofen flew numerous aircraft during his time in the war, he is most closely associated with the famed !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! Dreidecker triplane, though he only scored about 20% of his career victories in that aircraft. Before the D reidecker , he flew the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , then the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . He scored the bulk of his victories in the D.III, and it was this aircraft that he first painted red. A brilliant leader and tactician, Richthofen’s unit was soon one of the most effective of the war. In April of 1917 alone, he shot down 22 British aircraft, including four in one day. He finished the war with 80 confirmed victories, making him the leading ace of WWI and the second leading ace of all time behind !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , who claimed a staggering 352 victories during WWII. But being a fighter pilot, even the best of his era, was not without its dangers. On July 16, 1917, Richthofen was seriously wounded when he was shot in the head during a dogfight. He managed to land his plane, and after a brief convalescent leave he returned to flying, though the wound caused him nausea and headaches.

The funeral of Manfred von Richthofen, April 22, 1918.

The end of the Red Baron finally came on April 21, 1918, when he was shot through the heart and lungs during a dogfight. Though he managed to land his plane, he soon succumbed to his wounds. Controversy immediately swirled around who took the fateful shots. The RAF first credited Captain !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! with the victory, a Canadian pilot flying for the Royal Navy Air Service. But a post-mortem of Richthofen showed that he had been killed by a single !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! round that was most likely fired from the ground. Who actually caused the mortal wound is still open to debate and will likely never be resolved. Though he came down behind enemy lines, Richthofen was buried with full military honors in Amiens, France by members of !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . In 1975, his remains were moved to a family cemetery plot in Wiesbaden, Germany. (Richthofen photo by C.J. Dühren; replica Dr.1 photo by J. Klank via !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ; funeral photo by Sgt John Alexander via UK Government)

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Short Takeoff

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April 19, 2006 – The death of Scott Crossfield. Crossfield was born on October 2, 1921 and served in the US Navy as a flight instructor and fighter pilot during WWII. After obtaining a degree in aeronautical engineering, Crossfield went to work for the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! (NACA, later NASA), where he took part in test flights of nearly every aircraft under development at the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , including the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , and he became the first pilot ever to exceed Mach 2 while flying the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . As the chief test pilot for North American Aviation, Crossfield played a major role in the development of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , performing the first glide flight of the aircraft on June 8, 1959 and making a total of 14 test flights. After leaving North American, Crossfield worked as an executive for !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , and died at the age of 84 in the crash of his !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! while flying in adverse weather conditions. (NASA photo)

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April 19, 1951 – The first flight of the de Havilland Sea Venom, a carrier-based all-weather interceptor developed from the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! two-seat night fighter. The Sea Venom was fitted with folding wings, an arrestor hook, and strengthened landing gear, and the canopy was modified to allow underwater ejection. The production model was fitted with a single !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! turbojet which gave the Sea Venom a top speed of 575 mph, and it was armed with four !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! 20mm cannons and a combination of rockets and bombs. The Sea Venom saw action in the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! of 1956, as well as during other conflicts in the Middle East before being replaced by the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! starting in 1959. It was retired by 1970. (Photo by Kookaburra2011 via Flickr)

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April 19, 1944 – The first flight of the de Havilland Hornet, a twin-engined fighter that was developed from the larger !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , though it was an entirely new design. Like the Mossie, the Hornet used wooden laminate construction to save weight, but was powered by a pair of !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! “slimline” 12-cylinder engines which provided a top speed of 475 mph, making it one of the fastest propeller fighters ever built. Though it came too late to serve in WWII, the Hornet was flown as a strike fighter during the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , and set numerous speed records at air races. A navalized variant, the Sea Hornet, was also developed. A total of 383 Hornets were built from 1945-1950, and the type was retired in 1956. (Photo via San Diego Air and Space Museum)

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April 19, 1922 – The birth of Erich Hartmann, the most successful fighter pilot in history with 352 victories to his credit, all but seven coming against Russian aircraft. Over the course of 1,404 sorties, Hartman, known as the Blond Knight, was never shot down or forced down by enemy fire, though he did crash land 14 times, all due to mechanical problems or damage caused by the debris from aircraft he had dispatched. Following the war, Hartmann spent 10 years in Soviet prison camps before his release in 1955, and the following year he joined the newly-formed West German Luftwaffe as the first commander of !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , named after !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , better known as the Red Baron. Hartmann resigned from the Luftwaffe in 1970 over his opposition to the Luftwaffe’s adoption of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , and died of natural causes in 1993. (Hartmann photo author unknown; Bf 109 illustration by Jerry Crandall)

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April 20, 1978 – Korean Air Lines Flight 902 is shot down by Russian fighters. On a flight from Paris to Anchorage, Alaska, the crew of the KAL !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! (HL7429) made an error in calculating !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! as they neared the North Pole and mistakenly turned back towards Russia. Russian fighter pilots initially identified the aircraft as a !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! reconnaissance plane before realizing it was a civilian airliner. The Russians claimed that the KAL crew ignored attempts at communication, and the order was given to shoot the plane down. One missile struck the airliner’s wing, and the pilots made a crash landing in Russia on a frozen lake near the Finnish border. Two passengers died, and the remaining passengers and crew were detained for two days before being released. The Russian government billed South Korea $100,000 for expenses related to the care of the passengers. (Photo via !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! )

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April 20, 1964 – The first flight of the Lockheed L-100 Hercules, the civilian variant of the famous military cargo aircraft. The civilian Hercules arose in 1959 with an order from !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! for twelve of Lockheed’s planned GL-207 Super Hercules, but that project was eventually canceled. Instead, Lockheed chose to develop a variant of the C-130E, producing it in three lengths designated L-100, L-100-20 and L-100-30. A total of 114 of all types were completed by 1992 when production ended. Lockheed plans to further upgrade the L-100 by using the modernized !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! to produce the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , with its first flight expected in early 2017. (Photo by Bob Garrard via !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! )

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April 20, 1916 – The Lafayette Escadrille , a squadron of American fighter pilots flying for France in WWI, is deployed. Prior to America’s entry into WWI, US pilots went to Europe to fight for England and France. Named in honor of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , who fought for the United States in the Revolutionary War, the group was originally called the Escadrille Américaine , and wore French uniforms and had French commanders. With so many Americans arriving in France to fight, a larger group was formed, the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , and the Lafayette Escadrille was officially disbanded on February 8, 1918. Some of its members transferred to American air units, while others trained incoming US pilots. (Photo author unknown)

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April 21, 1964 – The first flight of the HFB-320 Hansa Jet, a ten-seat business jet manufactured by !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! that is notable for its use of a forward-swept wing. This arrangement allows the wing spar to pass through the fuselage behind the passenger compartment, which provides more internal space for passengers or cargo. The Hansa Jet is the only example of a civilian aircraft to use such a wing configuration. Only 47 were built before production ceased in 1973, with almost half of the aircraft being purchased and operated by the West German Air Force. (Photo via !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! )

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April 21, 1956 – The first flight of the Douglas F5D Skylancer, a fighter designed for the US Navy originally conceived as an upgrade to the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . Though it began simply as an upgrade to the Skyray, the Skylancer soon became different enough to warrant its own designation. Aside from its larger size and more powerful engine, the F5D had numerous aerodynamic enhancements to increase its speed, including application of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! to the fuselage. Possibly due to political pressure, the Skylancer was canceled after completion of only four aircraft in favor of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , and the completed Skylancers were used for testing by the US Air Force and NASA. (NASA photo)

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April 21, 1933 – The first flight of the USS Macon (ZRS-5), a rigid airship operated by the US Navy that served as a reconnaissance platform and flying aircraft carrier. The Macon and her sister ship !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! (ZRS-4) were the largest helium-filled airships in the world, and both could launch and recover five !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! scout planes or two-seat !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! training aircraft. The Macon served for only two years before she was damaged in a storm and crashed of the California coast, resulting in the loss of two members of her 76-man crew. (US Navy photo)

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Recent Aviation History Posts

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If you enjoy these Aviation History posts, please let me know in the comments. And if you missed any of the past articles, you can find them all at !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . You can also find more stories about aviation and aviators at !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

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user314 > ttyymmnn 04/07/2017 at 11:14

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Um. Posted early on purpose, or Kinja’d?

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > ttyymmnn 04/07/2017 at 11:17

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Excerpt from Lafayette Escadrille: America’s Most Famous Squadron . Henry Venable Bell was a relative of mine - and I’d been told he was in the Escadrille but had seen a list of pilots without him on it. I think this is the first time I’ve bothered to just brute-force search, and operations officer explains why he wasn’t on a pilots list...

Edit to add: appears to be a SPAD XIII behind them.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > ttyymmnn 04/21/2017 at 12:48

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I maintain that Roy Brown deserves credit for that kill.

I also maintain that the Aussi’s on the ground need more credit.

Richthofen would never have been that low had Brown not been chasing him, and had the shot from the ground not connected first it would have been an almost certain kill (or capture) anyway. But they DID shoot from the ground and nail him, so everything else after that is a what-if. The facts are the facts, Brown chased him low and the Aussi’s bagged him.

Fwiw, here’s a hypothetical: Move this to WW2. Brown is American. The soldiers are American. The USAAF uses a “shared kills” system, where a pilot can recieve credit for a fraction of a kill for situations where two pilots gang up on one plane. In this case, does the kill get shared with the ground forces? Or just given to one or the other?

facw > ttyymmnn 04/21/2017 at 12:50

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I’m guessing it’s not an accident that the F-35's full payload is identical to the A-6's.

Also the Hansa Jet was damn cool.

ttyymmnn > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 04/21/2017 at 12:51

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I find it hard to believe that the fly boys would share anything with the grunts. Even so, it would be impossible to know which Aussie took that one in a million shot. There were probably a hundred guys banging away.

ttyymmnn > facw 04/21/2017 at 12:53

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I hadn’t thought about it, but you may be right. I haven’t looked at the numbers, but does the Marine F-35 have a smaller payload than the Navy or AF variant?

MrDakka > ttyymmnn 04/21/2017 at 12:54

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We need to bring back airships as cruise liners of the sky

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > ttyymmnn 04/21/2017 at 12:55

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IIRC they tried to claim it as a group, so it would have been possible, but I think you’re right.

It’s not hard to see why they judged that way either, your average infantryman couldn’t hit a plane on the wing under any circumstances.

ttyymmnn > MrDakka 04/21/2017 at 12:55

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That would be cool. I’d buy a ticket. No reason why it couldn’t be done safely with modern construction techniques.

ttyymmnn > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 04/21/2017 at 12:57

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I’ll bet Alvin York could.

facw > ttyymmnn 04/21/2017 at 12:58

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I’m pretty sure the F-35B is like half of the other two. I think the F-35A and C are both 18,000 pounds though.

Quick check says Lockheed says 15,000 for the F-35B, which is a lot (AV-8B’s max is apparently 9,200 lbs)

S65 > ttyymmnn 04/21/2017 at 13:04

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HELL YEAH A-6

ttyymmnn > S65 04/21/2017 at 13:08

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I lived in Norfolk, VA back in the 70s and 80s, and we’d see Intruders and Tomcats and Hawkeyes all the time. The A-6 has always been a favorite of mine.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > ttyymmnn 04/21/2017 at 13:09

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My dad flew intruders and prowlers.

ttyymmnn > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 04/21/2017 at 13:12

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I might have seen him!

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > ttyymmnn 04/21/2017 at 13:14

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He was never in VA though, I got to try the simulator they had when I was a kid. I went to OCS there.

ttyymmnn > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 04/21/2017 at 13:17

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I miss Norfolk. I particularly miss being near the water. And seeing things like this:

McMike > ttyymmnn 04/21/2017 at 14:02

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The Russian government billed South Korea $100,000 for expenses related to the care of the passengers.

When shooting down an airliner isn’t a big enough “fuck you.”

ttyymmnn > McMike 04/21/2017 at 14:11

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I know, right? Total dick move.

Viggen > ttyymmnn 04/21/2017 at 14:14

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It’s interesting to think what the current state of a CVW would be if the upgrade programs for the Intruder and Tomcat had been approved. Would we still see the two Grumman types on the deck? Maybe. Though personally I feel that both would have been retired before the end of the Obama Administration. Always liked the odd lines of the Intruder and Prowler, guess that can be blamed on VHS from when I was a baby that featured the amazing mixed bags of aircraft on the flight deck.

Say what you want about them, but any aviator or anyone interested in aviation should have a level of respect and admiration for the likes of Hartmann, Galland, and Mölders. I’m sure some will disagree and call me a Nazi sympathizer for that one.

War is Boring recently had two interesting articles on the Su-15, one of them being including KAL 902.

McMike > ttyymmnn 04/21/2017 at 14:22

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I had a customer in my stores that came in every morning. He was probably 20 years older than I was. Nice enough guy, really quiet, and kinda timid. He was a hard one to crack.

I’d make small talk, try and joke with him.. Nothing. I could tell he got the jokes and appreciate the banter, but damn. Nothing.

He would eat the same thing every morning. Every so often we would not have it when he came in. His response was “that’s ok, I’ll get something else” No disappointment, just picked another item.

One morning, he walked in the front door and didn’t wait in line like he usually did. He walked right up to the counter and said, “Excuse me Mike? (points behind the counter) May I please use your telephone?”

His face was bloody, he had blood on his dress shirt/suit jacket. His glasses were broken. He looked like hell.

I let him use the phone.

After he got off the phone, he thanked me, walked to the back of the line, waited his turn, ordered, sat down, ate his breakfast, and then walked back out the door.

The next day when he came in, I asked him what that was all about.

He had been in a car accident on the way in, and walked a few hundred yards to call his wife to come get him.   He figured he had time to eat before the tow truck and his wife showed up, so he ate and walked back.

I’m like, this guy is unbrekable.

Turns out he was a A-6 B/N in Vietnam.

I guess night landings make everything else seem boring.

McMike > ttyymmnn 04/21/2017 at 14:23

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It’s like charging your beaten enemy for the bullets.

ttyymmnn > McMike 04/21/2017 at 14:31

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Don’t give Trump any ideas.

ttyymmnn > McMike 04/21/2017 at 14:33

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Damn. But as you say, if you’ve already been through hell, what could be worse? Any landing you can walk away from.....

ttyymmnn > Viggen 04/21/2017 at 14:45

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the amazing mixed bags of aircraft on the flight deck.

Absolutely. The Navy is down to what, two basic types of a/c? The Intruders are gone, the Prowlers, the Vikings, the Tomcats, and now they’re coming for the Greyhounds. I guess that makes maintenance easier, but as you say, it was neat back in the 70s and 80s to see so many different types, each doing their own job. But, as you suggest, both the A-6 and F-14 were getting pretty long in the tooth, even with substantial upgrades. But since we’re still flying the wings off of the 4th gen Hornets, I imagine the Tomcat would still be holding its own. And I can see how the Intruder would still be of use in today’s low intensity conflicts.

As for Hartman, I think it’s important to remember that he was fighting against mostly inferior Soviet pilots on the Russian front. Though he wasn’t the master of deflection shooting like Marseille, he still had to get the enemy in his sights. It’s sort of like my baseball fanatic friend who sees no problems with juiced batters. “You still have to be able to hit the ball.” And I don’t believe you’re being a Nazi sympathizer if you respect or admire those guys. I wonder just how many of them were truly Nazis at heart. Maybe all, maybe none. I don’t know.

Something that I’ve come across in these past 2+ years of writing is just how many American recon planes got shot down by the Soviets in the 1950s. We just don’t hear about it today. As far as I know, we never shot down any of theirs, at least not on the edges of North America. But I haven’t researched it. It would make an interesting article.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > ttyymmnn 04/21/2017 at 15:13

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I grew up in Hawaii and SF so I would see the ships, the east coast felt kind of strange to me.

Viggen > ttyymmnn 04/21/2017 at 15:15

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I can see a modern carrier wing still having a single squadron of Tomcats and one or two of Intruders. The A-6, even the A-6E as it was when it was retired, would have been perfect for the past sixteen years of combat. Throw in the KA-6 and you’ve got a tanker with legs again! Actually, on the subject of tankers, the Viking is another story that could be talked about. An underappreciated one at that.

There’s a book I’ve got but haven’t read yet, By Any Means Necessary, which is about the American recon flights. Cold War espionage and aerial reconnaissance is one of my favorite subjects, but so much is still classified. It’s certainly something I’m always interested in learning more about. Don’t suppose you’ve got any good online reading or book recommendations on the subject, do you?

ttyymmnn > Viggen 04/21/2017 at 16:13

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Don’t suppose you’ve got any good online reading or book recommendations on the subject, do you?

I really don’, but it’s something I’d like to learn much more about. I was born in 1966, and the Cold War was still very much a thing as I grew old enough to know what it was. I lived in Norfolk in the 1970s and 1980s, so the realization that we were right at the top of the Soviet targeting list was always on our minds. That said, I played in a professional concert band back in those days (mid-80s), and the Russians sent three ships on a goodwill tour. One of their stops was Norfolk. We all went down to the Naval Base to see the ships, and they brought along various troupes of performers, including a band. Our conductor invited the Russian conductor to lead a couple of tunes on our concert, and he agreed. He conducted the Soviet national anthem, and Glinka’s Russian Sailor’s Dance (appropriate). It remains one of the highlights of my musical career. Those were very heady days, with the Cold War thawing out, just a couple of years from the fall of the Berlin Wall. It’s such a tragedy that we have ended up where we are now. The last 15 years have definitely been a step backward.

The cruiser Marshall Ustinov leaving Norfolk in 1989

Viggen > ttyymmnn 04/21/2017 at 16:32

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Very cool! Were you allowed on the Soviet ships at all? Closest I can say I’ve been is the Tarantul corvette Hiddensee at Battleship Cove in MA. The Cold War has always been my focus in history, despite it being so recent. I was born directly after the Cold War, in 1993, but I’ve been fortunate enough to visit some rather important places from the Cold War, such as inside Cheyenne Mountain and Afghanistan. While I don’t envy living under constant fear of nuclear attack and was too young to experience fruitful relations between the US and Russia, I certainly agree that we’ve been on the wrong course for a while now. Of course, they do say history is bound to repeat itself.

ttyymmnn > Viggen 04/21/2017 at 16:58

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As I recall, we were not allowed on to the piers directly beside the ships, but could view them from the shore. Maybe we were allowed to walk out an adjacent pier. I just don’t remember. That was almost 30 years ago! Civilian access to the bases was much easier in those days. But we certainly got a good view of them. I was always fascinated by those missile tubes on the sides.

I wouldn’t say we lived in constant fear; it wasn’t the 1950s. My mom certainly remembers the air raid drills of her day. But we all knew that if war broke out, we’d be the first to go, so we actually didn’t worry about it much.

S65 > ttyymmnn 04/21/2017 at 19:41

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If the Hornets are still flying then why were the F-14s retired? It was my understanding that it was a combination of age, being expensive to maintain and a lack of technology. But honestly I have no clue

ttyymmnn > S65 04/21/2017 at 19:50

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I’m not certain, but you probably summed it up nicely. The Tomcat was also designed as a fleet defense fighter built around the Sparrow missile, and its primary mission and raison d’etre was shooting down Russian fighters before they could reach the fleet. Converting them to ground attack was done by adding a laser targeting pod, but that was really a stopgap measure. With the F/A-18, you had a newer, more advanced fighter bomber that could carry out both fleet defense and ground attack, sort of like a modern F4U Corsair.

ttyymmnn > S65 04/21/2017 at 19:54

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Edit: not Sparrow, Phoenix missile.

S65 > ttyymmnn 04/21/2017 at 20:20

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And while I’m here what do you think of the F-35? Can one aircraft “form the backbone of U.S. air combat superiority for generations to come”?

ttyymmnn > S65 04/21/2017 at 20:53

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That’s a loaded question, and you’ll find people who are adamant one way or the other. I think that, given time, the F-35 will mature into an effective weapon. However, I fear it will never be as good as the dedicated aircraft it is meant to replace. I’d rather have at least 100 more F-22s, dedicated air superiority fighters. I’d rather keep the A-10 as a dedicated ground attack aircraft. I know the Marines love their STOVL, but the F-35B is a huge compromise. Yes, we need stealthy airplanes, which the current generation of Naval fighters are not. And the F/A-18 is aging rapidly. The Navy is flying the wings off of them. But the US is in a tight spot, because most of our fighting is low intensity stuff in Afghanistan and Iraq and Syria, where the A-10 excels, yet we still have to be prepared for Russia or China with 5th generation aircraft. All this is to say that I fear the F-35 will be a jack of all trades yet master of none. And it all boils down to money, and there just isn’t enough of it, no matter what Trump tweets.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > ttyymmnn 04/24/2017 at 12:26

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Ran across something you can use for your May 10-inclusive post - the Fairey Fulmar’s introduction:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairey_Fulmar

Something a little bonkers about a Fairey Battle sized two-man big-fuselage navalized fighter.

I have also been reading about the Blackburn Skua, of which apparently only one exists, which was underwater in Norway. I wonder how that project’s coming along?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackburn_Skua

ttyymmnn > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 04/24/2017 at 12:36

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Thanks for the tip. I have started shying away from introduction dates, simply because I have plenty to write about as it is! I’m also trying to limit myself to death dates of people rather than birth dates.

I’ve always been fascinated by the Battle/Fulmar. But as Rumsfeld, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you wish you had.